I think it shows great commitment that you're sticking with it even when it's so difícil. That means you will eventually succeed, and hopefully by the end of the course a lot of it will have "collapsed into place" in your brain.
And yes, I'm one of those people who loves to hear about your adventures in Portuguese and life in general! Thank you for spending the weekend with us while we were there, instead of studying :)
I feel for you brother. I was a Spanish major in college (which really helped when I took Portuguese in my senior year after a year studying in Spain) and, even with a young brain, the process was difficult. A lot of it is just rote memory, which, as you know, becomes more difficult as we age. But, tal vez, someday it will just click. One thing I found while studying in spain was that it seemed that the more I drank the better my spanish became.
Your post did clarify something that has bothered me for five years. Se calhar. You hear it constantly and I knew from the context of the conversation that it meant maybe, but I could never find the exact word. I was hearing it as escalhar and I could never find that word in any translation apps. Thanks
Scott, please do not despair, or feel unconfident. I have faith. Yes, the more one knows, the more one feels one doesn't know. But, by the end of B1, you will know all of the subjunctive tenses and the personal infinitive and a few other combo ones.
Our B1 was just five, around a table, with a normal (fast) speaking teacher. Very early on she said to us, in Portuguese, that she would never use English and would speak normally, in spite of the fact that she knew we only understood about half of what she was saying. She said that that was how children learned their language so.....and she was correct. Immersion really worked. After that we were able to do Portuguese language tours and really enjoyed the additional doors that opened.
We had a similar September experience, where we were taken off of the wait list to join the B1 class up the hill from our house - we raced up to sign up and pay our money and THEN she handed us the schedule. I'm sorry 7pm-9:30pm - my brain does not necessarily function that late in the evening, so we dropped out and decided to do private lessons with our first professor from the Academia. He gave us last week a LONG treatise about the subjunctive in English. happy to share if you think it would be helpful. We think it was easier to understand in Portuguese - even though that was not at all. Still, the rapid-fire review has been great and, like you, we speak to our regular service providers, neighbors and friends in Portuguese as much as possible. And, remember, the Madeirense dialect is nearly impossible, even for native Portuguese speakers. Hope you are enjoying your classes as much as we are. Boa Sorte!
I’m over here still waiting for my A1 class (which has a waiting list) and still very much speaking Caveman Portuguese. While your class sounds very intimidating it also sounds incredibly helpful. I look forward to hearing more about it.
Yeah, I think "fluent in three months" is like diet plans promising that you can lose thirty pounds in three months. 600 hours (the FLI estimate) would mean 600 hours in 13 weeks = 46 hours a week, so if you spent the equivalent of a full work week functioning at high intensity in a foreign language, maybe you could do it. It's telling people what they want to hear.
Of course the other thing that is weird about learning is the irregularity of progress. I started learning Portuguese because I was frustrated at reach a plateau in Spanish. But, weirdly, with only minimal work on Spanish, over the next couple of years my Spanish improved anyway.
None of my courses/instructors have used the A1-A2-B1-B2 framework, but another thing that I've noticed is that informally, a lot of material seems to be guilty of grade inflation, or "vanity sizing," i.e. they will say something is "intermediate" when it really is only high beginner.
Again, it's all paced by laziness and lack of effort, but despite my best efforts to LET GO of English phonemes and HEAR AND SPEAK the target language's phonemes, I still can't do the Spanish rolled R, and I know that in (Brazilian) Portuguese, my "ei" (as in "dinheiro"), my "oa" (as in "Boa tarde" or "Lisboa" are not right. I can tell because I don't hear them when natives say them, and they don't understand me when I say them!
Anyway, I just wanted to say that learning a language IS HARD. Even though theoretically YOU are in an "immersion" situation.
By the way, Alexander McCall Smith wrote a moderately funny book with the title "Portuguese Irregular Verbs." Nothing much to do about Portuguese, but the central character is overly proud of his expertise in rather narrow field of endeavor.
"Yes, English can be weird. But it can be understood through tough thorough thought, though."
Until I tried tutoring people in English, I had no idea how much complicated, crazy, irrational grammar we all absorbed intuitively... so it never had to be taught to us in school. For example, in Portuguese, you indicate the difference between the statement, "É difícil," and the question, "É difícil?" by intonation and intonation only. But in English, we have to change the order of the words: "It is difficult." "Is it difficult?" The relationship of word order to meaning makes no logical sense. It's just as weird as changing "e" to "a" and "a" to "e" to form the subjunctive. Try to explain to someone when we need to use the word auxiliary verb "do," and when we don't.
I can now express myself almost fluently in Spanish, or at least the words come quickly. I can understand it only when a sympathetic speaker speaks slowly. After about three years of very-low-intensity study of Brazilian Portuguese, the main thing I've accomplished is to get the two mixed up.
As you probably know, the Foreign Language Institute rates Portuguese in the EASIEST group of languages for an English speaker to learn. But what they mean by "easy" is 575-600 hours of actual classroom instruction. So at, say, two hours a week, that would mean six years.
And, yes, it is extraordinarily difficult to find a way to "practice conversation." You almost need an instructor. In real life, one problem is that if it isn't a formal language learning interaction, communication quickly slides into "whichever language both participants speak best," so if you're at a low level of Portuguese and a friend is at an intermediate level of English, it's... so much easier to speak English. Another problem, of course, is that people will SAY "I'd be glad to teach you Portuguese" but that doesn't mean they will seriously sit down for an hour and struggle with you.
Estou uma luta, e estou fazendo progress muito lentamente.
Hubby and I are struggling with A1 - we are getting close to starting A2. It's a wild ride! We will make it, but I will never know the prepositional subjunctive doohicky. Just want to communicate and eventually pass the CIPLE.
So, did you ever find soybeans, or how to say it? Not something I would ever be looking for. When I was a legal secretary, our firm helped a French company create the concept of the "hypermarche", which sounds like that large building you were in, a place that sells everything.. Glad you are hanging in there learning Portuguese.
"I never grasped these concepts back in my high school English classes. They continue to elude me today."
I don't think we were even taught those concepts in HS. I think we "learned" them in our foreign language classes. This, of course, made learning the foreign language harder 🙂 "Future perfect? Pluperfect? Nope nope nope."
That makes sense in a lot of ways. I keep thinking I should find some resources on what these made up words and concepts mean in English but never seem to remember when I have the time to do it.
Portugués is not an easy language fir me. There are some similar words in Spanish, but for the most part I don’t understand their language. Good luck. Maybe if yoy start watching some of their soap operas on TV things will start to click.
Similar feelings. I use my physiotherapist and anyone who is able to help with my Portuguese. I sometimes just need the beginning of a conjugation or other word and I can muddle through. I’m giving myself much grace for trying and sticking with it, and I think it is starting to pay off in basic ways that give me confidence. It’s good that we’re making the effort to learn the language.
Hi Scott how did you register for the B1/B2 class? I took A1/A2 at the Nepalese Center but I wasnt successful finding the B1. And I’ve seen edamame at el Corte n the frozen vegetables freezers.
Hi Gayna. My classes are at Escola Secondaria de Camões in Saldanha. https://liceucamoes.wixsite.com/camoes/oferta-formativa . I registered in person during their office hours. I'm sure other places offer the class but I couldn't tell you where. You should be able to find out, though, by sending an email to glpt@acm.gov.pt. Boa sorte!
I think it shows great commitment that you're sticking with it even when it's so difícil. That means you will eventually succeed, and hopefully by the end of the course a lot of it will have "collapsed into place" in your brain.
And yes, I'm one of those people who loves to hear about your adventures in Portuguese and life in general! Thank you for spending the weekend with us while we were there, instead of studying :)
Yeah I think it will click in. Eventually.
I feel for you brother. I was a Spanish major in college (which really helped when I took Portuguese in my senior year after a year studying in Spain) and, even with a young brain, the process was difficult. A lot of it is just rote memory, which, as you know, becomes more difficult as we age. But, tal vez, someday it will just click. One thing I found while studying in spain was that it seemed that the more I drank the better my spanish became.
I've heard other people say the same about their relationship between booze and fluency. Hmm ...
Your post did clarify something that has bothered me for five years. Se calhar. You hear it constantly and I knew from the context of the conversation that it meant maybe, but I could never find the exact word. I was hearing it as escalhar and I could never find that word in any translation apps. Thanks
You're welcome! One mystery down ... 🔍 How many more to go?
Scott, please do not despair, or feel unconfident. I have faith. Yes, the more one knows, the more one feels one doesn't know. But, by the end of B1, you will know all of the subjunctive tenses and the personal infinitive and a few other combo ones.
Our B1 was just five, around a table, with a normal (fast) speaking teacher. Very early on she said to us, in Portuguese, that she would never use English and would speak normally, in spite of the fact that she knew we only understood about half of what she was saying. She said that that was how children learned their language so.....and she was correct. Immersion really worked. After that we were able to do Portuguese language tours and really enjoyed the additional doors that opened.
Thanks, Nancy! Hope you two are doing well!
We had a similar September experience, where we were taken off of the wait list to join the B1 class up the hill from our house - we raced up to sign up and pay our money and THEN she handed us the schedule. I'm sorry 7pm-9:30pm - my brain does not necessarily function that late in the evening, so we dropped out and decided to do private lessons with our first professor from the Academia. He gave us last week a LONG treatise about the subjunctive in English. happy to share if you think it would be helpful. We think it was easier to understand in Portuguese - even though that was not at all. Still, the rapid-fire review has been great and, like you, we speak to our regular service providers, neighbors and friends in Portuguese as much as possible. And, remember, the Madeirense dialect is nearly impossible, even for native Portuguese speakers. Hope you are enjoying your classes as much as we are. Boa Sorte!
I was actually thinking I need to find some resources in indicative vs subjunctive tenses in English so, yes, please do pass that along!
I'm actually ok with the late hour of the class (though I think I prefer the 4-7:30 that I had during A1/A2) but I know others who aren't.
And we were talking in class a couple of weeks ago about the different accents/dialects on Medeira, the Azores, up north, etc.
Glad you're finding options that work for you!
I’m over here still waiting for my A1 class (which has a waiting list) and still very much speaking Caveman Portuguese. While your class sounds very intimidating it also sounds incredibly helpful. I look forward to hearing more about it.
It is both incredibly helpful and intimidating, yes. I'm glad I'm taking it. I also hope it won't scar me for life. :-D
Yeah, I think "fluent in three months" is like diet plans promising that you can lose thirty pounds in three months. 600 hours (the FLI estimate) would mean 600 hours in 13 weeks = 46 hours a week, so if you spent the equivalent of a full work week functioning at high intensity in a foreign language, maybe you could do it. It's telling people what they want to hear.
Of course the other thing that is weird about learning is the irregularity of progress. I started learning Portuguese because I was frustrated at reach a plateau in Spanish. But, weirdly, with only minimal work on Spanish, over the next couple of years my Spanish improved anyway.
None of my courses/instructors have used the A1-A2-B1-B2 framework, but another thing that I've noticed is that informally, a lot of material seems to be guilty of grade inflation, or "vanity sizing," i.e. they will say something is "intermediate" when it really is only high beginner.
Again, it's all paced by laziness and lack of effort, but despite my best efforts to LET GO of English phonemes and HEAR AND SPEAK the target language's phonemes, I still can't do the Spanish rolled R, and I know that in (Brazilian) Portuguese, my "ei" (as in "dinheiro"), my "oa" (as in "Boa tarde" or "Lisboa" are not right. I can tell because I don't hear them when natives say them, and they don't understand me when I say them!
Anyway, I just wanted to say that learning a language IS HARD. Even though theoretically YOU are in an "immersion" situation.
By the way, Alexander McCall Smith wrote a moderately funny book with the title "Portuguese Irregular Verbs." Nothing much to do about Portuguese, but the central character is overly proud of his expertise in rather narrow field of endeavor.
LANGUAGES are difficult.
"Yes, English can be weird. But it can be understood through tough thorough thought, though."
Until I tried tutoring people in English, I had no idea how much complicated, crazy, irrational grammar we all absorbed intuitively... so it never had to be taught to us in school. For example, in Portuguese, you indicate the difference between the statement, "É difícil," and the question, "É difícil?" by intonation and intonation only. But in English, we have to change the order of the words: "It is difficult." "Is it difficult?" The relationship of word order to meaning makes no logical sense. It's just as weird as changing "e" to "a" and "a" to "e" to form the subjunctive. Try to explain to someone when we need to use the word auxiliary verb "do," and when we don't.
I can now express myself almost fluently in Spanish, or at least the words come quickly. I can understand it only when a sympathetic speaker speaks slowly. After about three years of very-low-intensity study of Brazilian Portuguese, the main thing I've accomplished is to get the two mixed up.
As you probably know, the Foreign Language Institute rates Portuguese in the EASIEST group of languages for an English speaker to learn. But what they mean by "easy" is 575-600 hours of actual classroom instruction. So at, say, two hours a week, that would mean six years.
And, yes, it is extraordinarily difficult to find a way to "practice conversation." You almost need an instructor. In real life, one problem is that if it isn't a formal language learning interaction, communication quickly slides into "whichever language both participants speak best," so if you're at a low level of Portuguese and a friend is at an intermediate level of English, it's... so much easier to speak English. Another problem, of course, is that people will SAY "I'd be glad to teach you Portuguese" but that doesn't mean they will seriously sit down for an hour and struggle with you.
Estou uma luta, e estou fazendo progress muito lentamente.
At the end of this class I'll have had about 300 hours of classroom instruction. I guess I still have a ways to go, then.
Hubby and I are struggling with A1 - we are getting close to starting A2. It's a wild ride! We will make it, but I will never know the prepositional subjunctive doohicky. Just want to communicate and eventually pass the CIPLE.
You will get there! Slow but steady wins the race!
(Except in an actual race, in which fast and steady wins 🙃🙃🙃😀)
Hang in there!
So, did you ever find soybeans, or how to say it? Not something I would ever be looking for. When I was a legal secretary, our firm helped a French company create the concept of the "hypermarche", which sounds like that large building you were in, a place that sells everything.. Glad you are hanging in there learning Portuguese.
I think it was a hypermarche, yes!
Kudos for continuing to learn the language!
"I never grasped these concepts back in my high school English classes. They continue to elude me today."
I don't think we were even taught those concepts in HS. I think we "learned" them in our foreign language classes. This, of course, made learning the foreign language harder 🙂 "Future perfect? Pluperfect? Nope nope nope."
That makes sense in a lot of ways. I keep thinking I should find some resources on what these made up words and concepts mean in English but never seem to remember when I have the time to do it.
Portugués is not an easy language fir me. There are some similar words in Spanish, but for the most part I don’t understand their language. Good luck. Maybe if yoy start watching some of their soap operas on TV things will start to click.
Watching TV is a good way to see the language used in a more natural environment. (Not that soap operas tend to be natural environments but ...)
Similar feelings. I use my physiotherapist and anyone who is able to help with my Portuguese. I sometimes just need the beginning of a conjugation or other word and I can muddle through. I’m giving myself much grace for trying and sticking with it, and I think it is starting to pay off in basic ways that give me confidence. It’s good that we’re making the effort to learn the language.
Yes. The more we practice, the better we'll get.
Hi Scott how did you register for the B1/B2 class? I took A1/A2 at the Nepalese Center but I wasnt successful finding the B1. And I’ve seen edamame at el Corte n the frozen vegetables freezers.
Thanks for the edamame tip!
Hi Gayna. My classes are at Escola Secondaria de Camões in Saldanha. https://liceucamoes.wixsite.com/camoes/oferta-formativa . I registered in person during their office hours. I'm sure other places offer the class but I couldn't tell you where. You should be able to find out, though, by sending an email to glpt@acm.gov.pt. Boa sorte!
(And thanks for the edamame tip!)